Tuesday, March 06, 2012

Catholics and Muslims Worship the Same God. Period

Catholics who deny that Muslims worship the same God are a pet peeve of mine.

The Church says we worship the same God.

And so we do. End of story. Why is this hard?

Lumen Gentium 10 is pretty clear about the issue:

In the first place amongst these there are the Mohammedans, who, professing to hold the faith of Abraham, along with us adore the one and merciful God, who on the last day will judge mankind.

So along with Muslims, we worship the one and merciful God.

It's not difficult, people.

Of course, it is objected that the picture of God in the Quran and that of the Bible is radically different.

Okay. So?

See, when you ask if you're talking about the same being, having radically different ideas about who that person is does not negate that you're talking about the same person.

If you ask social conservative bloggers who I am, they will have radically different things to say about me than leftists.

That does not mean they're not talking about the same person.

In the Spencer article, the question is raised in order to underline the differences between Muslims and Catholics.

And that's legitimate.

But raising the question as "Do Catholics and Muslims worship the same God" leaves open to the suggestion that we don't worship the same God. And this idea is rampant among a certain strain of otherwise Orthodox Catholics.

Saying that we do not worship the same God because we have radically different ideas about God is false. It does not conform to Catholic doctrine.

Yes we do. We may not like the fact that we do, but when the Muslims talk about God and we talk about God, we're talking about the same person. It's just that very often, Muslims are wrong about God.

Dissent from Catholic teaching is dissent from Catholic teaching, whether it's on abortion, homosexuality or the identity of God.

If we are to correctly assess Islam in all its dimensions in order to combat its errors, we must know the truth about it.

Comments (35)

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There is evidence to suggest that Allah was actually a throwback to pre-Islamic gods:
http://answering-islam.org/Shamoun/allah_swearing...

Islam, like Christianity, is derivative of Judaism, though the Muslims are loathe to admit it.

The biggest mistake Catholics make is that we have any connection or common ground with Muslims. Not so.

Muslims do not believe that Jesus is the Son of God and deny His death (and subsequent Resurrection):
http://www.quranbrowser.com/cgi/bin/get.cgi?%20ve...

Fatima was the name of one of Mohammad's wives. The similarity ends there.
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7 replies · active 669 weeks ago
I'm not sure what the problem is. The Dogmatic Constitution of Lumen Gentium says that we worship the same God.

That's not to say we have the same ideas about him.
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I see what you mean.

I don't even think that.

I still maintain that Catholics misunderstand whatever connection we may have with Islam.
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You can reject who God *really* is and worship him.

You can identify someone correctly without knowing someone. Muslims have correctly identified the same God as ours, they worship him, but they're wrong about him.
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balbulican's avatar

balbulican · 669 weeks ago

There is...over on the right hand side. The little "thumbs up" thingie.
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balbulican's avatar

balbulican · 669 weeks ago

"It's just that very often, Muslims are wrong about God."

More accurate, I think, to say "my team differs on some elements of their interpretation of God".

But otherwise, kudos for this acknowledgement of linkage.
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The Church already says we worship the same God. It's right there in the Church's Dogmatic Constitution.

Just because they have wrong ideas about God does not mean we are NOT talking about the same person.

The God we are both talking about is the same God. We are talking about the God of Abraham, the God of Jesus and Mary.

We have both identified the correct God, they are grossly wrong about who he is or what he said.
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Vatican II WAS NOT a Dogmatic Council. It WAS a Pastoral Council.

No Pope can change The Core Dogmas of our Catholic Faith. Our Creed. GOD IS TRINITY. - This Muslims vehemently deny. Muslims deny GOD IS FATHER. Muslims deny THE RESURRECTION OF OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST.

In 1Corinthians15:14 St. Paul teaches us: And if Christ be not risen again, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.

JESUS WARNS US: Matthew 7:15 Beware of false prophets, who come to you in the clothing of sheep, but inwardly they are ravening wolves
And again in Matthew 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect.

NO. CHRISTIANS AND MUSLIMS DO NOT WORSHIP THE SAME GOD. CONTD…
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Vatican II produced a document called A Dogmatic Constitution. Are you seriously suggesting that a document called a "Dogmatic Constitution" was not intended to be doctrinally binding? The Holy Spirit operates infallibly whether the bishops call it a pastoral council or a hootenanny. When the bishops of the world and the pope agree to a matter of faith or morals, regardless of the circumstances of the gathering, it's always binding, otherwise we'd always be stuck figuring out what's binding or not.

No Pope can change The Core Dogmas of our Catholic Faith

But acknowledging that Muslims and Catholic identify the same God does not amount to changing the core dogmas. What the Church has said is that the Muslims have identified the One God, even though they are wrong about many things about him.

Arians denied the Trinity. Are we rash enough to suggest that they did not worship the same God as Catholics? Of COURSE they did! They were wrong about Jesus. Same thing with the subsequent string of heresies. They all worshipped the same God, just in error.
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Since the time of Mohammed up until Lumen Gentium, the Church did NOT say we worshipped the same God. Now it does. What was the rationale for that? It's not explained, just stated. Flat, like that. A lot of weird things came out of V2, things that jar with respect to the previous millennia, and not just this issue.
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3 replies · active 669 weeks ago
From the Old Catholic Encyclopedia:

"The Allah of the Koran is practically one with the Jehovah of the Old Testament."

Hardly Vatican II doctrine, there.
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/10499a.htm

A lot of weird things came out of V2, things that jar with respect to the previous millennia, and not just this issue.

That's what Doctrinal Development is all about.
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OUR CATHOLIC CREED CANNOT DEVELOP. IT IS SET IN STONE.____Pope Clement V, Council of Vienne, 1311-1312:____“It is an insult to the holy name and a disgrace to the Christian faith that in certain parts of the world subject to Christian princes where Saracens, also called Muslims live, sometimes apart, sometimes intermingled with Christians, the Saracen priests, commonly called Zabazala, in their temples or mosques, in which the Saracens meet to adore the infidel Mahomet, loudly invoke and extol his name each day at certain hours from a high place… This brings disrepute on our faith and gives great scandal to the faithful. These practices cannot be tolerated without displeasing the divine majesty. ____We therefore, with the sacred council’s approval, strictly forbid such practices henceforth in Christian lands. We enjoin on Catholic princes, one and all.. They are to forbid expressly the public invocation of the sacrilegious name of Mahomet… Those who presume to act otherwise are to be so chastised by the princes for their irreverence, that others may be deterred from such boldness.”____Muslims deny THE DIVINITY OF JESUS CHRIST
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OUR CATHOLIC CREED CANNOT DEVELOP. IT IS SET IN STONE.

That is simply not a Catholic understanding of Catholic doctrine. Catholics acknowledge the existence of doctrinal development. The definition of the Trinity was not handed on to us on a silver platter in 33 AD. It had to be worked out in order to come to the truth about the relationship between the various persons of the Holy Spirit. Just like the dogmas of the Immaculate Conception and the Assumption are not attested to in the first or second centuries. These dogmas were the product of doctrinal development. Doctrinal development is the process of deepening the understanding of the Truth of the Catholic Faith.
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I'm not sure how any of this disproves my original thesis that Catholics and Muslims worship the same God.

The only think we agree on is the concept that there is One God, but we part ways even there since the Muslims will not accept the Triune nature of God.

Don't be so reductionist. Muslims accept mant dogmas about God. They accept a few truths about Revelation, such as God creating the world, forming Adam, appearing to Abraham, etc. They *are* talking about the same God when they worship. They're just wrong about him on a large number of points.

o If Muslims want to find and know the true God they need to reject tehir whole system and false God wholesale, and turn to Jesus Christ, there is NO other way.

I agree. But they still worship the same God.
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But do the Mormons worship God?

If they worship Jesus Christ, they worship the same God as we, no matter how screwed up the rest of their theology is. Even if they commit idolatry on a massive scale, their sin does not erase the fact that they acknowledge Jesus as Lord. And therefore the same God as we. You seem to have this idea that in order to worship the same God, we have to have the same theology. We don`t. We only have to identify the same divine being and acknowledge him as the Supreme Being. That`s it. That's all we have to do to worship the same God. The rest is details.

As far as Christian converts are concerned, how do you suppose Christian converts are made if they don't start out believing in the same God? The reason they are able to move out of Islam is because a priori they recognize God as God.
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Understanding and identification are two different things. If you worship Jesus, you worship the same God we do, no matter how screwed up the rest of your theology is. Some ancient Romans worshipped Jesus alongside other gods. They adored the same God we do, just all the while committing idolatry on the side.
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It is a sin to worship other gods. But worship other gods does not preclude adoration of Jesus. Sin doesn't preclude all acknowledgement of the truth.
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CCHeritage's avatar

CCHeritage · 669 weeks ago

I don't think Neal was talking about adoration or precluding all acknowledgement of the truth.

Suzanne, just to take anyones word (including the Catholic Church that previously stated otherwise) on something like this, that has historical facts that state the opposite, is just not smart, logically or spiritually. I would say that you wrote this ignorant of the facts. Allah was a god they picked out of the many gods they worshiped. Mohammad was illiterate and couldn't read or write. He himself thought he was possessed by a demon spirit (which he clearly was) but a so called "Christian" friend of his wife (if I remember correctly) ended up convincing him it was God etc when it clearly wasn't. That is a the tip of the iceberg but you owe it to yourself to know all the facts. Someone deleted Rod Parsley's awesome sermon/s about that off of YouTube, which laid out all the facts wonderfully.
So here is another that asks some very important questions of whether Islam and Christianity are sister faiths (4 parts): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jQsojLxExBA&fe...
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1 reply · active 669 weeks ago
Gaaaahhhh...you Christians are looking like a pack of vultures fighting over bones and picnicking on those among you who get in the way of your personal little feast...no table manners, whatsoever!

Suzanne's original and main point is correct: Christians and Muslims worship the SAME god...which, incidentally, happens to be the god of the Jews, as well. That is the basic truth of the matter. Everything else is personal detail.
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4 replies · active 669 weeks ago
Gaaaahhhh
Don't you dare complain! Here, have some popcorn instead.

But amusement aside, it's good to know that for all their loudly professed fealty to Christian dogma, their hatred of Islam trumps all.
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I know you think being absurdist is somehow a rhetorical TKO but at the end of the day you will never live in an Islamic state or in an Eastern culture. You've benefited from the West greatly. You would never rock the boat by saying about Islam what you would say about Catholicism/Christianity. Your tired canards of Christian extremism/creationism (no idea how that came up but you brought it up)/atheist triumphalism show you and your arguments to be shallow, juvenile and self-important. At least Christopher Hitchens- for all of his repellant views on Christians/Christianity- knew exactly who buttered his bread and why he should be grateful for it. Islam has positively affected the world the way the bubonic plague has.

At this point, you'll come up with some sort nonsensical would-be logical equation that amounts to your not being able to stand up for the civilisation that gave you succour and protection.
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"Your tired canards of Christian extremism/creationism (no idea how that came up but you brought it up)"
If you take a second to glance at my post (the one right above yours), which is also my only post in this comment thread, what you will fail to find is any mention of, reference or allusion or any other connection to either Christian extremism or creationism.

I always thought you had a tendency to fly of on a tangent, I only now realize that that is because you do not actually read a word I write but just post something random upon seeing my name. I thought we where trying to have a discussion, I now notice that I was mistaken. Sorry to have wasted your time.

(no idea how that came up
Boy, can I relate to that!
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"Don't you dare complain! Here, have some popcorn instead."

Oh, I wasn't complaining...it's really, really hard to hear my laughing my head off about it when all you've got to go by is print...hehehehehehehehe!

But popcorn gets stuck in my teeth. Got maybe some s'mores? I promise I'll brush extra carefully after... ;D
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